DnB What frequency ceiling do you have for your bass? What floor?
- Thread starter kdk
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I tried to make some sense of it, but i failed. Threads lost the plot.
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My sub is 20khz'ish, hats around ~50hz and snare should punch around < 20hz.
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Right, I wasn't going to, but I feel the need to weigh in on this....
Having a sub hit at around 20hz is absolutely pointless as most systems don't register anything below 30hz, and even then, it's only the more top end systems that will register that low! And as for not ever going over 70hz or whatever it was you're all talking about, well....that's absurd also! When creating tracks you need to consider what people will be listening on. Sure, you'd like to think your tracks will get played out in clubs, but the reality of it is that it will mostly be heard by your average Joe listener, most likely through a general home stereo or a pair of iPod earbuds! Out of curiosity, have you actually tried listening to a sub through earbuds that only runs at 20-70hz? it's inaudible! By pushing up a little higher (say around 80 - 100hz ) you are giving enough harmonics to be heard on most systems, without compromising the mix. Kicks should be low cut at around the 80hz mark, unless you are writing house music in which case they can sit lower as it's typically the kick that gives the bass in this genre. I tend to give a small boost at around 130hz for the kick.
But back to the topic in question, there is no right or wrong when it comes to frequency splitting, and don't stick to the same rule you decided on about 6 tracks back, it all depends what style of track you are producing, what type of bass your are trying to create, what drum samples you are using etc etc.
I think a couple of you in here need to step back and actually think about what you are saying as there is some serious false info in here that would confuse the hell out of any new producers.
Having a sub hit at around 20hz is absolutely pointless as most systems don't register anything below 30hz, and even then, it's only the more top end systems that will register that low! And as for not ever going over 70hz or whatever it was you're all talking about, well....that's absurd also! When creating tracks you need to consider what people will be listening on. Sure, you'd like to think your tracks will get played out in clubs, but the reality of it is that it will mostly be heard by your average Joe listener, most likely through a general home stereo or a pair of iPod earbuds! Out of curiosity, have you actually tried listening to a sub through earbuds that only runs at 20-70hz? it's inaudible! By pushing up a little higher (say around 80 - 100hz ) you are giving enough harmonics to be heard on most systems, without compromising the mix. Kicks should be low cut at around the 80hz mark, unless you are writing house music in which case they can sit lower as it's typically the kick that gives the bass in this genre. I tend to give a small boost at around 130hz for the kick.
But back to the topic in question, there is no right or wrong when it comes to frequency splitting, and don't stick to the same rule you decided on about 6 tracks back, it all depends what style of track you are producing, what type of bass your are trying to create, what drum samples you are using etc etc.
I think a couple of you in here need to step back and actually think about what you are saying as there is some serious false info in here that would confuse the hell out of any new producers.
I low cut everything that is in a tune, for Bass, around 40hz, No-one hears, it so bin it, it gives some more room to your mix, and every little bit helps in the end. You should get some Sub Bass going in your tunes, and look for ways to mix your Kick drum. I like to think of Sub Bass and the Lows as one upto about 200hz(depending on the tune) so you should be getting 3 harmonics from your Sub Fundamental, and hopefully you get a sound out of most speakers then. I like to listen the laptop speakers, and hopefully i can make out a bassline.
Look at where your kick is hitting, I like to have it away from any Sub Bass notes hitting. I usually have it 3 or 5 semitones up from the Main bass Note. If it does have some notes that hit around your kick, add some sidechaining to it to duck the bass a bit when the kick hits. Maybe look at Surgical EQ if that still is muddy, Maybe notch some bits out of the clashing bits in the Bass. High Pass the Kick so you kill the sub from it. I usually set mine at 60-80, depending on what bass info is in that region in the tune. I usually use the -48 db filter option in ableton to cut the shit out it, give the Sub as much space as possible. You need Sub Bass, its Drum and Bass man
Your spectral analyser should be the goto tool here while working on your mix of Kick and Sub.
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^TRUTH.
Fletch's post should appear second in this thread in response to the OP's question because it's simple, cohesive and works. I have no PhD or major record deals, but I (and I'm sure many others) can vouch to the above approach as being a great starting point.
Once upon a time before the age of wiki, forums, the interwebz and easy to obtain spectrum analyzers, producers relied on primitive tools known as ears. Facts, figures, ratios, graphs, charts, theorems, etc. are all fine & dandy...but dwelling on such things and/or using them as a concrete guide for every tune you produce is a guaranteed recipe for frustration...that goes double for new producers. Understand the absolute primitive basics and start creating whilst tweaking as you see fit to help develop your signature sound.
Cheers.
Raptor's Den
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Yup mr fletch has got it completely on point, That everything is a different style so really just do whatever seems fit with the style.
Everything I wrote up btw is just one certain style, one example.
But Why would you ever want to hear the bass?! You guys do know you arent making sub bass to HEAR the sub bass. You are making it to feel it. I dont care if people personally REQUEST me to allow them to "hear" the bass... Ill still stick to my 20-50hz. The entire low end spectrum starting at 20 hz adds body to the bass. Not too much or it will make it flavourless. The whole flavour of the track lies in the rumble of the sub.. I make music for a proffesional sound system to play it perfectly. Idc if it sounds "bad" to the user on Ipod Earbuds... Its Earbuds.... Its a bassless sound player... Which is perfectly fine to listen to but cmon, its not like its some crazy sound system in a room or club, and I still dont and wont understand why anyone would make your sub so you can actually hear it.. its not about hearing jackshit of the bass. Bass is meant to be felt. Unless said bassline has a midrange that needs to be heard. You can all make music how you wish and please, but tbh I would never make my bass hearable just so I want people on ipods and home systems to hear it better! Its not even made for a home system! Its made for a specific purpouse a specific intent. It all comes down to a science, and its not even just listening to the frequency as the only thing that actually works. Rather as well using our conscious mind to think about things and its all a science, a pure and true and such fun science! I wish you all the best of luck <3
In a properly acoustic controlled room you may not even be able to breathe from the intensity of a proper sub bass because it is soo resonant and powerful by itself one never needs to hear the bass. Just my tips. Hearing your bass is not the point of bass. Yeah its heard by the ears and some frequencies absorb but you gotta feel that bass in your chest! Thats the whole point of bass music, otherwise we are all making it for ipods and home systems! Good tips but I really have to disagree with the "try to make it to hear your bass" notion. Much respect for the added help and contribution though
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1- The clue is in the name. Drum & Bass
2- Youve lost me a bit hear. How come professional producers can make music that is bassy on headphones as well as being heavy on the dancefloor.....both physically & Audibly?
Where i appreciate your efforts to help in this thread, i completely disagree with this comment. Bass should deffinately be heard......
ps. not having a dig!
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Yeah man I think you kinda misunderstand the point here.
Listen to any commercial track, whatever genre really, doesn't matter, through earbuds. you'll still be able to hear the sub bass, although due to the size of the earbuds you wont feel it. Play the same track through a monster sound system and you'll be able to feel it! By hearing it on a small system you know it's there, perceiving the bass sound makes the track subconsciously complete. If you were not to hear it, then it would sound poor and unfinished.
Also I'd like to reiterate a previous point that I made, YOU should care who listens to it on earbuds.......as 90% of your listeners / fans etc will be listening to it on that kinda system! A track wont instantly get played in a banging club without the DJ and probably a few of his pals listening to it first, which will probably be done on headphones, car stereo, studio, EARBUDS etc. If it doesn't sound polished, they aren't gonna play it!
Listen to any commercial track, whatever genre really, doesn't matter, through earbuds. you'll still be able to hear the sub bass, although due to the size of the earbuds you wont feel it. Play the same track through a monster sound system and you'll be able to feel it! By hearing it on a small system you know it's there, perceiving the bass sound makes the track subconsciously complete. If you were not to hear it, then it would sound poor and unfinished.
Also I'd like to reiterate a previous point that I made, YOU should care who listens to it on earbuds.......as 90% of your listeners / fans etc will be listening to it on that kinda system! A track wont instantly get played in a banging club without the DJ and probably a few of his pals listening to it first, which will probably be done on headphones, car stereo, studio, EARBUDS etc. If it doesn't sound polished, they aren't gonna play it!
Raptor's Den
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Nah yeah I totally didnt completely understand! Sorry bout that guys! Yeah no I mean hearing your bass yeah, but I thought like you mean adjust it only so people can hear the bass on earbuds. So it appeals to the earbud crowd that cant feel the bass. I misread way too crazy man haha sorry . Causee there are songs with just a DEEEP low sub bass, that you cant even feel nor hear the sub on earbuds such ass deep dubstep or trap or something. haha Sorry bout that I read that completely wrong but no yeah I completely agree with you 100% Just basically make a solid 100% whole rounded off bass! Yeah i misunderstood haha. Nah yeah Right definitely, I 100% wholesomely agree Mr Fletch! Ehh, even some songs have just a deep sub bass so you wont even hear it on earbuds, rather feel it more. So yeah its really more to each their own track. Whatever you apply to it! I totally understand now though hahaha. Sorry bout that again! And no yeah I do care, I was just saying i dont care if the listener complains and says they cant hear the bass when its supposed to be felt, and especially on ear buds. Of course i wouldnt just NOT care but id respond saying the bass is there on a system. haha thats where I am coming from! Yeah I see completely what youre saying. I misunderstood as you just hear it rather then feel, when yeah of course it can be hearing and feeling. To each their own basically! Thanks for explaining further bro! <3
In jist just make a solid whole, balanced, completel, and dynamic mixdown... ahhahaha ! Learn to balance and you will thank yourself later!
every mixdown always needs balance!
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Mason John
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Well, I'm a beginner in a bedroom so I'm already on shaky ground, but does it help to do the "wall" test? You know, put your hand on the wall and see if you can feel the sub resonating through it?
I also try stepping outside the room and do the same, and put my chest, hand, and ear on the wall to test it. Also usually just taking a step back with the door closed and me inside, seeing if the sound is filling the room or not.
- - - Updated - - -
Try some Jeremy Slyvester tracks and you'll think otherwise. Such as this one:
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Fletch and Cartel got it spot on.
Going slightly off topic, but is there a way to high-pass kicks/bass and other stuff without increasing the peaks? Even my linear phase EQ raises the peaks quite a bit with any slope steeper than 24db/o
Going slightly off topic, but is there a way to high-pass kicks/bass and other stuff without increasing the peaks? Even my linear phase EQ raises the peaks quite a bit with any slope steeper than 24db/o
My subs are pure sines, they never go above 80hz (main note is always much lower, 36hz being my favorite), except maybe briefly on a big pitch bend (rarely tho, and the sub is always low-pass @ 100hz so theres not to much of a spike on bends)
Mid bass I keep above 100hz-120hz, between 100hz-200hz I EQ so that there is just what is needed to fill the space around the Kick and the Snare
everything else gets balanced as required
Mid bass I keep above 100hz-120hz, between 100hz-200hz I EQ so that there is just what is needed to fill the space around the Kick and the Snare
everything else gets balanced as required
GhostOfMuttley
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Ipod buds boasting a 5hz-21khz freq response dawg
sorted
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I know exactly what you mean.
To tame those peaks, you can try a 12db or 6db slope. If you need that 24db slope, simply lower the EQ's gain slightly.
Any reason in particular why you're using a linear phase EQ over a simple channel EQ? Just curious.
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I seldom use it.
I started trying it out when the whole 'peaking from filters' thing arised, and because I read somewhere that it happened because the EQ messed with the phase. It did lessen the peaking, but only a bit less then the channel EQ, so unfortunately it didnt end up fixing the issue.
Sounds better, but obv has a lot more latency so i only use it for resampling drums and maybe bass.
It can get very annoying, because for example high passing a house kick 95hz significantly lowers the RMS, but raises the peak around 4db. So when i'm trying to get my drums and bass thick and fat, giving it room for the sub ends up loosing its power and makes it take up more space. Not good.
Raptor's Den
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You have it on point.. why couldnt I write 9 paragraphs less.. haha it would be the same as yours lmaoo
@mania, on that house example, personally I would place the bass and kick on the same drum rack, play an instance of them at the same time obv. See how it sounds, add a limiter, and adjust and balance from there! Simple stuff! Within a limiter you can realllly PUSH the shit out of bass.... its a nice thing, unless you want it unlimited for a specific reason, haha either way, put on a limiter, and make your entire final kick from there, layering it is good yeah which is essentially what you are doing here but its really hard to tame sounds when they are on separate tracks with no limiter... And tbh a limiter maximizes your sound just well enough so you can make some FAT KICKS! Then obv compress, etc!
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i cut everything at 35hz, my sub lying in between there and 100, my kick lying from about 80-180 with a pop at 500hz and 2khz mid bass is about 500hz
obviously there are clashes in frequency but side chain the kick and sub - i read the mix engineers handbook and very interest note was compression should "breathe" with the track and you get a nice pump action
also some surgical eqing opposite the peaks - so my peak kick say 90 then i take a savage thin dip on the sub at 90
obviously there are clashes in frequency but side chain the kick and sub - i read the mix engineers handbook and very interest note was compression should "breathe" with the track and you get a nice pump action
also some surgical eqing opposite the peaks - so my peak kick say 90 then i take a savage thin dip on the sub at 90
Raptor's Den
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yup and also practice with the compressor and sidechaining, the threshho
Here is another tip. Single out your sub bass, and seeing the levels, get it exactly even with your kick. IE: single out your kick and work back and forth evening out and adjusting your bass and kick and snare out as needed. Then with the addition of your sidechain compressor, the threshold is what determines how deep you want to cut through your bass with your kick. Your ratio is how much you want to cut through.
What is basically happening with a sidechain compression is that you as the kick inputs and outputs, it literally replaces the pressure in volume of whatever you are sidechaining such as your bass. Personally for me for a smooth clean sound if I dont want pumping of my kicks and bass, I simply just split my bassline into a sub bass layer and a mid layer, and sidechain the sub layer directly with the kicks, because the mids and high ends will play out fine with the mid and high end of your bassline, however, depending on how good and tight you adjust your sidechain, your bass and kicks bass will mend and combine together seamlessly, and give you that smooth clean sound you want.
Here is an example I did in this song, its the second bassline after the main drop. But you get my point, Super clean, powerful, balanced, etc! <3 Hope that helps too! Im gonna make a compression tutorial, compression is soo complex when we dont know how it works, but when you know its like spreading the butter on your toast to finish off your breakfast... hahahaha
Btw that tune and a lot others are free.. grab dem shizzes! <3