Sub bass advise/help

Discussion in 'Production' started by A.S.K, Sep 25, 2015.

  1. A.S.K

    A.S.K Member

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    Hi Guys,

    Decided to try and write some half time Dnb (taking a break from more neuro stuff) and what some advice/ a second pair of ears on the sub. I've put together a quick beat and trying to get like a rolling sub going through the tune, but my monitors are currently out of action so producing on some KRK headphones and finding it quite tough to guage the mix in general.

    Bounced the current 8 bars I have (really basic so far) to reference on some other speakers (hi fi ones) and the sub sounds lacking, however with headphones it doesn't sound too bad (ish).

    Was wondering if I could get some advice on how it sounds and any thoughts/ tips/ general advice on how I can getting sound more balanced in the mix. DL link below.

    https://www.sendspace.com/file/shlc29

    Cheers
     
  2. miszt

    miszt BASSFACE Royale

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    post it up in the New Talent section, you'll get a better response - not in the studio atm, but if i get a chance i'll have a listen later

    headphones are a good reference, but they can also be very deceptive, if you don't have a great monitoring setup, then i'd recommend checking in the spectral analyser on your master, check the sub is rolling around along with the kick and everythings nice and smooth, no big spikes etc
     
  3. Summers

    Summers Member

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    the sub is really muddy, make sure you eq the low end out of everything in your mix apart from your kick which you should sidechain to the sub. Also what note is your sub? it sounds like it may be too low, you should never ever go any lower than a note E for your sub because soundsystems can't properly output frequencies below 40hz.
     
  4. miszt

    miszt BASSFACE Royale

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    that's not actually true, Infra-bass bins will go below 20hz (Funktion1, Opus, etc - typical freq response ~25hz-60hz), home hifi systems cant do much at those freqz, but a good sub, club rig, will handle it very well
     
  5. Solace

    Solace Active Member

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    Yea indeed, you can def go lower than an E. I really don't know why people always think that.

    Although this sub is indeed quite muddy. I guessing since it's a low passed sample or synth? It probably will be better if it's a clean sine.
    And it is indeed quite low. But not too low. And it also depends on what the rest of the track above that sub sounds
     
  6. Summers

    Summers Member

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    well I doubt this guys tunes are going to be played on any funktion1 sound systems with infra-bass bins any time soon, and why would you want to make a track that's designed to work specifically on huge high end sound systems unless you're playing at festivals every weekend, obviously there are no solid laws in production, but in mine and many other producers opinions anything below 40hz lacks power and theirs not much point in doing it. However that's not the main reason this lacks power, as crizis said it's probably a low passed sample which is usually going to be a bad idea, it's much easier/cleaner to use a sine.
     
  7. miszt

    miszt BASSFACE Royale

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    I regularly have sub at 37hz, i dont know where this 40hz rule has come from, 30hz high pass is quite common in the pop side of music, but there are plenty of none-high end rigs that will play 35-40hz...given that dnb is club/rave music, ppl ought to be learning to produce for big rig, even if that day is a little way off

    Yes u are right, this is off topic, but its an important point, writing dnb for hifi's and ipods isnt the best way to go
     
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  8. Mr Fletch

    Mr Fletch aka KRONIX

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    This drives me mad when I see newcomers asking for help only to be fed false information by people who don't know what they're talking about!

    To the original poster....listen to Miszt, he knows his shit!

    As for never going below E for a sub that's complete bollox, and you don't have to always sidechain your bass to the kick either, if you EQ correctly then the only reason you will need to sidechain is if that's the intended result. You don't need to use it to help your kick come through the mix.
     
  9. fanu

    fanu Active Member

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    I'm going to say that actually sounds pretty strong and decent (my monitoring system being Audeze LCD2 headphones and Adam A7 speakers + Adam Sub8 sub).
    Sure it doesnt sound as clean as a sine wave but it doesnt have to. In mastering I'd control it a wee bit; I think it's just slightly loud...or, also, if you take a look at kick/snare balance, I'd say kick is a bit loud compared to snare. Bringing the snare up a wee bit would fix the overall balance.
     
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  10. Solace

    Solace Active Member

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    I don't want to add anything to this, just reinforce this statement.
    So +1 to this comment.
     
  11. fanu

    fanu Active Member

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    Also, 40 Hz is not a "rule" as there's few rules in music – it's a guideline. I've probably played somewhere around 200 shows, thanks to which I've been able to pay attention to how different mixing techniques sound on rigs.
    Early on, when I wasn't paying any attention to numbers (I still prefer to do things by ear but have picked up a whole lot of useful "number info"), I was making those extra low basslines – probably somewhere around 30 Hz – but every now and then I couldnt hear them in clubs. As I learned about things, I started paying attention to bass/sub and was able to test my findings, and found out there's no "point" in going ridiculously low because it's often unheard.
    Reality is, there will be gigs you'll play where the sound system isn't optimal or tuned so. Hence 40 Hz is a decent guideline. You _can_ make it lower than that, but the less professional the system it's played back on the less it'll be heard.
    Even in mastering, I aim at having the fundamental freq around 40–60 Hz as that's where the strong sub resides. If the fundamental goes a lot below 40 Hz, I always ask the producer to fix that in the mix, and the result is a stronger and more audible sub every time.
     
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  12. Summers

    Summers Member

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    why would you aim to produce music for a big rig with infra-bass bins if it's obviously not going to be played on one

    you'll probably find that 99% of good dnb producers don't go below 40hz because the lower you go below that you lose punch and get more inaudible rumbles that take up headroom and fuck with your mixdown, hence why loads of tracks that have subs lower than this sound like they have a poorly mixed sub. There is no reason to go that low in mine and many other producers opinions. And I didn't say it was essential to sidechain the sub to the kick, but in this instance you should because in this type of dnb the kick is one of the fundamental elements, it should cut through and provide a heavy thud, I wouldn't highpass the kick at all in this, should only really do that in things like liquid where the kick isn't as prominent.

    Thank you, exactly my point, I never intended to imply that 40hz was a rule, just that there's no point in going any lower.
     
  13. miszt

    miszt BASSFACE Royale

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    I spent the last 12 years playing in may of londons biggest clubs, squat parties, festivals ,forest parties. ..etc etc.. I have never had a problem playing 37Hz, even on my own rig that I owned and ran at events for ~6 years, it was knowhere near "high end", but it could pump out 37hz without any trouble; and apart from some very very small rigs (tannoy pub systems for eg) I've never had an issue with it.

    why work towards a big rig? simple...because that is what dnb is ment to played on, you don't learn to do something by first getting up on stage and realizing that what you have done, sounds shit, you have to learn it first


    Edit: Just to add, it is of course impotant to consider the harmonics of your bass/sub, it is true that a 30Hz sine, is not going to play on a hifi, and so you should think about the harmonics, because your music should sound good on all sound systems, not just big rigs - but you cant beat a good rolling sub line coming out of a big rig, and there is no good reason to abandon the 25-40hz region for the sake of Hifi play back.


    there is no problem having sub 40-60hz, but there is also no reason to tell people to cut everything off below 40hz - when I mix and master, I cut at 30hz for most things, and for stems aimed at festivals, i usually high pass the sub at 20hz; the only time I high pass @ 40hz is when I am working with acoustic, or vocal-centric music, where the sub is not the important element


    but as was said at the start of Fanu's post, there are no rules, and I personally disagree that people should be aiming for 40hz high pass, that has allot to do with the fact that I love a 37hz sine, but its also based on over a decade of experience playing out on many of the best, and worst, sound systems out there
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
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  14. Solace

    Solace Active Member

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    This statement is so wrong. I could make a whole mix with tunes with subs below 40 hz.
    However.
    Alot of dancefloor, commercial and neurofunk producers probably won't go below 40hz. Because indeed, tracks in those subgenres start sounding weird when that low. But that's more because synths just don't sound that in those low keys.


    This is thread is kind off becoming a bit pointless though. Do whatever the fuck you think sounds good.
    I like working in low keys and probably alot is below 40hz. It works for me and I will keep doing it. If you don't like going that low, then don't. Simple as that.
     
  15. RUSSLA

    RUSSLA DNBF Monarch

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    We never go lower than F because lets be honest, anything below that runs risks of sounding shit on smaller home systems, period. The hardest hitting, allrounder sub is G which is bang on 50Hz, Kick at 100hz, Snare at 200hz. BOSH
     
  16. Dark Lizardro

    Dark Lizardro The Lizard that has a hammer Staff Member

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    so it's G-G-G-G-G-G-G-GGG-G-G even of your track is in key of C#?
     
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  17. RUSSLA

    RUSSLA DNBF Monarch

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    Shut up m9
     
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  18. miszt

    miszt BASSFACE Royale

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    harmonics are the only way to ensure people at least get the impression of bass, unfortunately HiFi systems arnt even the most common way people listen to music today, its all tablet and phone speakers, even if you stick above 50hz, they still arnt going to hear it, unless you have harmonics aswell - even allot of hifi system are those mini ones which can barley handle 100hz lol


    ...this is partly why I say forget home systems, focus on the rigs the music is designed for, coz if we really do go for the majority of systems, well we might aswell just call it Drums & Drums
     
  19. Dark Lizardro

    Dark Lizardro The Lizard that has a hammer Staff Member

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    But that was a genuine question, m809. If G is the most powerful note to be used for subs, since it hits the 50hz spot just right, then how to accomplish such a powerful sub-line with other not so powerful notes, and still make them work with different scales and modes you can come up with?
     
  20. miszt

    miszt BASSFACE Royale

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    its purely subjective tbh, we all have a different low freq we respond to better, and that also changes within different listening enviroments