LSB: "we are pushing towards a situation where DnB is fragmented by label camps"

I utterly understand the argument about having to trawl through 150 average tunes to find the good stuff, but surely it's a case of adapting the way you hunt for music? For instance, I tend to listen to member mixes on here. By and large they are representative of a far broader range of music, as opposed to say listening to an artists mix which will probably be heavily focused on their own music and the label(s) they represent. Obviously that has it's perks but you can end up in a cycle of very similar music.

With regard to label nights, building brands is increasingly important I imagine due to the ability of your average punter to source music illicitly. Drop in revenues from the actual physical product means the best way to make money off the back of the music is to host events that incorporate the artists on that roster. Thus the need for strong branding to ensure those events sell as many tickets as possible. I could be hugely misguided but I feel that is probably one of the bigger contributing factors.

In a way the diversity in terms of label nights on any one night has probably contributed to the downfall of large scale independent nights. When you have to compete with say a critical night at fabric or the ilk, as a promoter you would understandably worry about investing a lot of money in a broad and impressive line up when you know you could have a lot of your target audience at varying competing nights. If independent nights book labels as well I imagine it's cheaper to get say 3 artists from one label than 3 from 3 different labels. Economies of scale and all that.

I suspect in some way as well the branding of nights is important to the customers too. Just like wearing beats headphones. Anyone with ears can tell they definitely aren't the best on the market, but people buy them because it's the done thing. Likewise, people will go to certain events as they are viewed as cool ones to go to (I'm talking in a broader sense here, not just about DNB).

To summarise. The way music is consumed has changed, and that means the varying scenes have to adept to keep going. Currently stronger branding and focus on those brands / labels is how it's currently working.
 
In a way the diversity in terms of label nights on any one night has probably contributed to the downfall of large scale independent nights. When you have to compete with say a critical night at fabric or the ilk, as a promoter you would understandably worry about investing a lot of money in a broad and impressive line up when you know you could have a lot of your target audience at varying competing nights. If independent nights book labels as well I imagine it's cheaper to get say 3 artists from one label than 3 from 3 different labels. Economies of scale and all that.

First of all, that's not a situation we want here to happen. At the very best 10 biggest labels in the game going on and on in every venue all the time, competing each other. No independent nights are capable of surving that in a long run. From my own experience (and without pointing fingers), the only upside to dealing with an agency/label in terms of setting up a label night is that you can solve everything in one go, dealing only with one person, setting up all the details for everyone on the lineup in one go. Yes, you can get a pretty reasonable discount from some agencies if you book more of the artists they represent, but label night costs extra money in the end. Plus the already discussed lack of variety can and will easily go down that night.

I suspect in some way as well the branding of nights is important to the customers too. Just like wearing beats headphones. Anyone with ears can tell they definitely aren't the best on the market, but people buy them because it's the done thing. Likewise, people will go to certain events as they are viewed as cool ones to go to (I'm talking in a broader sense here, not just about DNB).

It's hard for me to accept (and I say this even though I've got in drum & bass really late, can't imagine the dissapointement of people, who's been into this movement for 20 years or more) that the music and the scene are turned into a business playground more and more. I would still like to believe most of the people do it for the love of the music and fair play to those, who can live off it, whether they run a succesful label or score a deal with a major label signing their beats. But I know of things some of the biggest fish pull off, actively harming the competition, signing exclusive deals and whatnot in a try to monopolise their position on the market (be it in terms of the actual music or bookings outside UK etc.), which is by all means wrong, not only in DNB.

To summarise. The way music is consumed has changed, and that means the varying scenes have to adept to keep going. Currently stronger branding and focus on those brands / labels is how it's currently working.

And do we really want to adapt to everything? Just because things have changed we still can say no to the stuff we don't like or approve of. Maybe it's futile and most likely it's naive, but standing up for the things you believe are right can still make a difference. To me it does, anyway.
 
Got to chime in here with my 2 cents..


1. I think a lot of the issues being raised here are very much centered on london, where label nights and big branded events do take centre stage. Its bound to happen like this in bigger cities - bigger audience = bigger promoters with bigger budgets and smaller nights simple cant compete with that. Its not impossible though, just harder.I live in brighton which is a reasonable sized city and its not like this at all. yes there are label nights (shogun obv, critical and exit have been here recently too) but the vast majority of nights here are independent. Some have more varied line-ups, some stick to a particular sound, thats the will and desire of the promoters though, not because the bigger events are forcing them into anything. I think it will be like this is a lot of other towns and cities too. I know for a fact its like that in oxford - some big nights, but most small interdependent things run by and for locals


2. People going on like these bigger labels are somehow holding the scene to ransom or doing something overly detrimental, which is wide of the mark imo. They are simply doing what they need to do to survive in a very cut throat and fickle business, and what the market dictates. If these events werent popular or making money they would stop pretty quickly but the relative abdundance of them in recent times is testament to peoples desire to go to these kind of things. A strong brand is all important these days in order to stand out, dance music is bigger business than its ever been before and you’ve got to compete


3. Lack of smaller nights may also have to do with the business sense, or lack of it, from some people that start nights. ive seen it happen many times, people going in all gung ho on their first event or two booking far more headliners/mcs etc than is strictly necessary and losing a lot of money and being unable to carry on. A softly softly more patient approach is whats needed, start small build up a loyal following and build organically like that.you only have to look at the grooves guys on here, or rupture for example, to see that it works, and in london no less!


4. If you dont like the situation, maybe start a night yourself....sure a lot of the people moaning wouldnt be so quick to take the plunge themselves. Be the change you want to see though lol
 
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All fair point Foniks, i don't agree with some of them, and some really don't represent my limited experience of the scene, but we will all experience it differently.

I think people kinda assumed my original point was in regards to label nights, really wasn't the case. Just a danger of a general camp mentality where producers only release on one label at certain times, rather than a wide variety of labels who would be best placed to promote the music like it used to be. It's probably just moved on without me, and for good reason i'm sure.

As for label nights I understand that they can be very beneficial and they are important to keep labels financial above board. As per my original reply, it doesn't need to be a case where branding becomes more important than just good music. Sometimes it feels like we are pushing towards something where sometimes it feels like 'camps' aren't quite as integrated as they once were. It's probably all for good reason and im probably wrong. It's just how i have experienced things changing over the last 10 years

P.S i ran nights for years in Norwich, they were very diverse, i wouldn't be able to put on the lines up i did back then. That's just how it is, it's not a negative it's just the reality of DnB in 2015 compared to 2005.
 
my experience is far more limited than yours. ive never promoted a night, released a record or dj'd to any real degree, just chiming in because im a loud mouth :)

i interviewed chris ball a while back when i was doing the blog (along with kasra & k-tee for a piece called 'insde the industry'), and think its extremely relevant to all this, and this was 5 years ago now..

Edj: There has been a glut of exclusive signings recently, and all the big ‘camps’ seems to have a core stable or artists they are working with – Shogun have Rockwell, Perez, Spectrasoul, Icicle, Headz have Commix, Jubei, Subwave, then theres the Ram/Hospital/Playaz crews etc. Why do you think this is – can you give us an insight into the reasoning behind why your labels have gone down this route? Do you think that this is the way the industry is heading with a few big stables consolidating there position with exclusive signings? Further to this, there has been a large increase in the number of artist albums recently – there seems to be more of a focus on artist development which I suppose relates to the above. Why has there been this shift recently do you think?

CB: There is definitely a focus on long term artist development amongst the bigger labels now for sure, and it’s a reflection of the industry in the way that people are trying to apply the major label ethos to smaller independent labels. If you look at majors, they sign a band and develop them with a view of releasing an single that will chart in the top 20 that they can then use to push forward more with singles, tours, merchandise etc. It’s the same with d&b but on a smaller scale. We are currently working with 6 or so artists and over the course of 12-18 month cycles we are aiming to work closely with them and develop them sufficiently so that after a few singles they can release an album. Whilst one artist is undergoing this process there is someone else starting it too and so it means that we can have a cycle of albums coming out every year or so of high quality and it just keeps going.

You have to look at it long term. Its not good just putting out singles and them watching an artist go and release an album on another label after you’ve put all the work in. It’s a symbiotic relationship. As the artist gains more recognition and popularity, so does the label for putting out their music which in turns helps drive sales of other things such as tickets for events and merchandise etc. This helps the label financially of course which then lets us carry on doing what we are doing. Certainly looking at manufacturing costs and sale prices, a CD album costs £8-9 in the shops and so more albums means more revenue for both artist and label which helps both to develop.
 
Yeh the whole indie promoter argument only really sticks to London to be fair - in Bristol I can't even count on one hand how many indie promoters there are putting on decent nights - however, I've been to a few that have been dead.

As @Jwood27 said, the fact that there's a lot of average music being released on much smaller, often unheard of labels isn't necessarily a bad thing. I believe it brings a lot of diversity to the scene in terms of what is being played by DJs. Take house & techno for example, there's an insane amount of music out there and the DJs keep track IDs very close to their chest for good reason. Spending hours digging to find new music is what all DJs should do in my opinion - to find those new producers who labels haven't taken notice of yet, but their music is of high quality - if everyone played the same music (within your given sub-genre of d&b) from the same big labels then it would be boring, right? Find those tracks that no one else has cottoned onto yet.

The music played by a lot of DJs in this scene is dictated by what the labels are releasing. People need to start digging beneath that, and looking for producers that are making amazing music but just haven't been released on a bigger label yet. Think of the number of dubs that Loxy, Doc Scott etc. are playing in their podcasts - that isn't all made by well known producers, it's people sending them music. They like it, they play it. While they have the luxury of being sent all of it, we have to go and find it for ourselves. But it's worth it.
 
Fonik - yeah thats a really interesting read. that utopian view that Chris talks about is the perfect model for label and producer relationships. :)
 
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It's also a shame that there are some exceptionally talented DJ's around who aren't getting booked because they haven't released on a big label.

I remember flyering at a night and some promoter came over to me and started chatting to me. He said he puts on some night I've never heard of and showed me his flyer. It had some great producers on there but their djing is pretty average.
I showed him out flyer and he looked at me with disgust. It had Mistanoize, Contakt and Memro, among others who can easily follow a big name in terms of skill.

It seems that the best way to get gigs is to be affiliated with a label. There is no way someone can survive on djing alone, not in dnb anyway.
 
from the same interview with chris..

"The whole industry has kind of flipped 180 degrees over time. The way it is now is that you release a tune and off the back of that you get the recognition and exposure that gets you the gigs etc which maintains your lifestyle and allows you to make a living off the music, where as before it was always the other way rounds – the dj’ing got you the name/reputation which you then used to sign tunes. It’s why you never see a DJ break through these days. You have to be a producer first and foremost."
 
from the same interview with chris..

"The whole industry has kind of flipped 180 degrees over time. The way it is now is that you release a tune and off the back of that you get the recognition and exposure that gets you the gigs etc which maintains your lifestyle and allows you to make a living off the music, where as before it was always the other way rounds – the dj’ing got you the name/reputation which you then used to sign tunes. It’s why you never see a DJ break through these days. You have to be a producer first and foremost."
As a producer I'm quite happy it turned that way. The scene might not actually reflect it, but i think it benefits the music itself.
 
from the same interview with chris..

"The whole industry has kind of flipped 180 degrees over time. The way it is now is that you release a tune and off the back of that you get the recognition and exposure that gets you the gigs etc which maintains your lifestyle and allows you to make a living off the music, where as before it was always the other way rounds – the dj’ing got you the name/reputation which you then used to sign tunes. It’s why you never see a DJ break through these days. You have to be a producer first and foremost."

Then you get people like Hannah Wants.
 
As a producer I'm quite happy it turned that way. The scene might not actually reflect it, but i think it benefits the music itself.

Might have helped the music, definitely didn't help in terms of the amount of enjoyable DJ sets lately. Nowadays you get most of the producers playing too much of their own stuff (I know the general public wants that but I couldn't care less personally) and on top of that, most of them started to think they need to throw in as much as possible, which reflects especially in sets on big open air festivals/indoors, where most of the DJs play more than 30 tunes an hour. You usually need to catch someone in a club to hear a good atmospheric set that evolves somehow and is not just a quick mash up of all the big tunes at the given time. Needless to say, more and more DJs use pre-pitched CDs, which is a result of producers breaking through instantly and their need to start DJing before they even learn how to plug in a setup.
 
i think its weird when you go see LTJ or digital and they play the top 40 dnb tunes instead of their trademark sound.

djs take to making the music they spin soooo much quicker than regular noobs. although i usually base that statement on mark serum who, as it turns out, is a musical genius, so not perfect to base an opinion on
 
This is quite a depressing read.. To be honest it doesn't help when labels are putting on nights that clash with other nights in London, surely this is on purpose? Then there's no decent nights on for the next 3 weeks? Example:

1st May Metalheadz at Fabric
1st May Hospitality at O2 (Quite a lot of non hospital artists playing here....)
2nd May Renegade Hardware
Then probably nothing decent for a few weeks..

I would gladly go to all 3 but I have to choose 1 for the weekend.. Can anyone explain the reasoning behind this? Do the labels want to compete with each other rather than be collective and plan these things better? This is not a one off either it happens quite often. Maybe all the labels have done enough market research to know the above is the best approach? I don't know..
 
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This is quite a depressing read.. To be honest it doesn't help when labels are putting on nights that clash with other nights in London, surely this is on purpose? Then there's no decent nights on for the next 3 weeks? Example:

1st May Metalheadz at Fabric
1st May Hospitality at O2 (Quite a lot of non hospital artists playing here....)
2nd May Renegade Hardware
Then probably nothing decent for a few weeks..

I would gladly go to all 3 but I have to choose 1 for the weekend.. Can anyone explain the reasoning behind this? Do the labels want to compete with each other rather than be collective and plan these things better? This is not a one off either it happens quite often. Maybe all the labels have done enough market research to know the above is the best approach? I don't know..

I don't think these people are talking to each other about that. Secondly their bound to dates given by the locations and can't "choose" their date. Fabric, Brixton & O2 plan ahead for a few months if not years and it's an take or leave situation. I don't even think it's a new problem either, surely has been like that for a while. Sometimes more, sometimes less...
 
Fair point, I don't know the inner workings of how these things come about. It's just my perception that there seems to be a lot of labels clashing nights. It would be nice to see more smaller independent nights, I guess the closure of a lot of smaller clubs has contributed to the downfall of these too. The label heads really need to drive what they want out of the scene really? We can only choose what's put in front of us.
 
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