Kick and sub bass question

Discussion in 'Production' started by Quotec, Jan 7, 2015.

  1. Quotec

    Quotec Active Member

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    There´s bunch of producers telling that when you have a lot of action in the sub bass area, it´s wise to get a kick peaking higher, for example at 100Hz or even 110Hz. I never go mainstream and in fact I want to get the best punch out of two elements which means I develop my style of kicks peaking fairly low(70-80Hz) and sub bass at about 50-60Hz. It´s not a long way to mud land and so I tend to run into too much interference between two elements. Tried to sidechain this fucker but I ain´t good at sidechaining(the problem is rather that I don´t understand sidechaining). Tried cutting out excessive low-end on kick but seems like I still can´t get a nice sounding result. Obviously there´s not too many options to get these two work together in perfection but maybe I´ve missed some great techniques. Is there a way to get that thing working in above described scenario?

    Oh and I´ve noticed few producers in Soundcloud list artists that have supported them. How does one get a support from well-known artist? Should I send them my tracks and see if they like them or?
     
  2. mr meh

    mr meh Well-Known Member

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    Cut a notch out of your sub where the kick is peaking at.
     
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  3. Quotec

    Quotec Active Member

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    Ah, know that and use too, but didnt use in the track im working on haha! Thanks for reminding, i'll give it a shot!
     
  4. Solace

    Solace Active Member

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    I rarely use sidechaining... Or dips in eq's for that matter...
    If it sounds good, it sounds good.
    And when I feel the bass is a bit overpowering when the kick hits, I get a bit of sub out of the kick. Yes out of the kick. I like my kicks punchy, not subby.
     
  5. RUSSLA

    RUSSLA DNBF Monarch

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    Learn sidechaining, it literally makes all this shit go away to a certain degree.
     
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  6. sam the dnb man

    sam the dnb man Variation

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    A notch in the sub is a good trick but be wary that higher notes may be affected.

    If I had one, I'd use a sidechain able EQ that dipped a notch whenever the kick came in. I'd then experiment with some pre attack (if there is such a thing) to create a little suspense before the kick. Dunno if it would work though.

    Tuning is essential IMO as well as controlling kick tails.

    I always tune my kick with the key of the tune. Usually with an analyser or until it locks in with the rest of the track.
     
  7. RUSSLA

    RUSSLA DNBF Monarch

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    this, so much wanky rumble can be cut off usually
     
  8. Mania

    Mania i fukin wot m8

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    Im a big preacher of volume enveloping bass, using either automation or a plugin like LFO tool. You can customise the curve so it gets rid of clashing but doesnt even sound like its there.

    Also, my kicks and sub dont clash at all anyways because i sharply highpass my kicks above the top note of the sub. This means that my kicks, bass and sub arent clashing at all and leaves a fucking awesome mix where everything has space to shine.
     
  9. -agu-

    -agu- Member

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    Same here, for me it's nearly always Pendulum/Skrillex/neuro/brostep-style tuning, where kick is tuned to the root, one octave higher than sub and snare exactly one octave above that. For example playing G with a sub would be 49Hz if I remember correctly, so your kick would sit around 98Hz and snare at 196Hz. There's also the fact that if you use low passed square or triangle as your sub, that odd harmonic will be sitting nicely right between your kick and the snare if you do this (I don't know how this should be said correctly, but to be precise if your sub sits at 50Hz, that harmonic will be at 150Hz, an octave and a half above).
     
  10. Krispy

    Krispy Member

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    Generally I will low pass EQ my sub at about 120hz but I will have my kick high passed at say 80 hz... This is because I still want the kick to retain it's low end character and be boomy. These frequencies are bound to have a conflict and double up and add more volume. The solution is to put a sidechain compresssion chain on your SUB channel. This way the sub ducks when the kick hits.... Here is a link which should help you understand

    http://chocolatepuma.com/2046/studio-tips-sidechain-kick-bass-without-losing-the-punch-of-the-bass/

    The most important part of sidechaining a sub, in my opinion, is to fiddle with the attack and release settings to get rid of any unwanted clicks.
    And I usually use a fairly high compression ratio.

    I put a sidechain compression on both my main bass and my sub bass but I use different compressors for each.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
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  11. Alert

    Alert Oblivion Fringe

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    OP, what DAW are you using?

    :r2d2:
     
  12. VOIR

    VOIR New Member

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    70-80 Hz is definitely still in the sub range, so it's very likely that your sub is still clashing with your kick. Have you tried hi-passing the kick @ 100 Hz? You won't lose any of the punchiness since that's well in the 120-200 range. I would also recommend EQing the kick down at around 200-250 if it sounds muddy.
     
  13. djdizzy

    djdizzy Active Member

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    for my sub i put one EQ instance on it to lowpass, then another separate EQ instance to notch out where the kick's peak is at. it does its job but it would definitely take alot of amplitude out of certain sub notes, even with a very high Q / very narrow notch.

    these days i do one of two things:

    1) just sidechain it
    or
    2) use something like LFOTool or VolumeShaper (I use LFOTool) on the sub and create a custom shape. I'll resample aka record the sub so i can see the waveform. then compare the waveform of the sub to the waveform of the kick, then I'd adjust the shape in LFOTool and resample/record it and compare again until the 2 waveforms fit together well visually and sound good of course. a little bit of overlap at the tail of the kick is good, in many cases it sounds better because it gives the sub bass a little bit more time to be heard. just be sure that there's no sub bass during the kick's transients, the main punch that you want to come through in the song.

    Krispy gave some great advice above. I also highpass my kick at 80hz and I lowpass my sub at 100-120hz depending on the song.


    I've wanted to try a sidechainable EQ for the longest time also. Isn't Fabfilter's Pro Q 2 supposed to be able to do that?
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2015
  14. mr meh

    mr meh Well-Known Member

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    The meat in a dnb sub is generally around the 40-60hz area, so taking a notch out at 100hz for a kick shouldn't affect the subs power.
     
  15. djdizzy

    djdizzy Active Member

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    yeah i thought the same and sometimes it doesn't affect it that much. but if you're taking out a deep notch even if it's really narrow, it'll make a big difference. at least with Pro-Q it will. you can enable the "Pre+Post" view and you'll be able to see how much it takes away from the sub frequencies. if you're doing a little -3db notch then no it won't affect it. but -10db or more, it affects the sub frequencies even if it's really narrow... at least with Pro-Q anyway.
     
  16. xiris

    xiris Constantly Learning

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    Check this out, its even free:
    Heel Audio's Duck EQ

    "Duck EQ is an Equalizer that reacts to a side chain input, or in other words a Ducker that can act on specific frequencies. However, it can also work as a normal Ducker, as well as an all-or-nothing dynamic EQ."
     
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  17. RUSSLA

    RUSSLA DNBF Monarch

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    FYI Logic users.. Sidechain filter is under the little arrow at the bottom left of the plugin, set to notch, select your freq and Q, adjust to taste.

    Plus it can act as a parallel compressor using the Mix function.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2015
  18. sam the dnb man

    sam the dnb man Variation

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    It will affect the first harmonic of a G note though
     
  19. Agenz

    Agenz New Member

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    When I set up the sidechain do I use a standard 1/4 note? My kick would be on the 1 and 11 so do I need to set it up that way so the sub ducks on these hits. Thanks in advance for any help.
     
  20. lug00ber

    lug00ber Active Member

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    You use the kick as your sidechain input, meaning that the ducking processor reacts to the kick, but applies processing to the sub.

    Like someone already set, a vital part of the job is to tweak the envelope settings of the ducking processor (eq or compressor), especially the release setting. The release is imperative to getting the right groove, so small adjustments can have a lot to say for the feel of the track.
    It might be easier to do at least the initial adjustment with extreme gain reduction, so you can hear clearly when the ducking processor lets the sub back up again. Then adjust the amount of gain reduction applied, and finally do small adjustments to make it work (which obviously is a highly subjective definition).
     
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