is it the bass or is it me?

Discussion in 'Production' started by dieiscast, Jun 5, 2013.

  1. dieiscast

    dieiscast Member

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    i'm really struggleing since a long time. i just can't manage to create a fat, punchy bass. i would like to achieve some basses like this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOKdMuNeW3M (Chris SU / Rawfull Panorama)
    in this track the sub is hard hitting and really punchy (listen at 02:13). if i make a sub bass, then it always smooth. i already tried compression, experimenting with adsr and pitch envelopes, a lot of different vst (fm8, massive, z3ta2+, predator, etc.) but i can't get near.

    another examle is the punchy bass at 01:50 of this sick track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZCUdtRTqjQ (BSE - Breach)
    here as well... i tried things with adsr, pitch envelopes, etc... if my bass is punchy then it don't have enough low end or vice verca.

    i'm looking for this deep, fat, low end, punchy bass... any recommendations? i'm really frustrated... ;o)
     
  2. Ran

    Ran Member

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    may be a stupid question but have you try to split your bass to get the punch on the low mid and the fatness on the sub ?
     
  3. dieiscast

    dieiscast Member

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    yes, shure. but i tried both: create one bass an route it on two or three channels (low/mid or low/mid/high) and i also tried to highpass the mid bass and to create a single mono sub bass (sine, low pass) on another channel. which one would you recommend? does it matter?
     
  4. Ran

    Ran Member

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    What sequencer are you using ? I m pretty new in production ( especially in dnb) but yes what i learnt was to create one bass and split/keep it in one channel.
    I recall there is one problem with that though. When you cut your sound with a filter (if that s what you re doing) you automaticaly loose somes at the cut point (due to how the filter works).
    There is another way to do it to keep your whole wave form, i may be able to find the tuto if that could help (on ableton but the principles are easy to re use on other daws).

    Edit : found it back. here you are http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOJr_QjjFQA (maybe not that easy to re use haha). Don t know if that can totally fix your problem but it s quite interesting idea anyway ( as often with that guy, strongly advise you to watch at his tuto : )
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  5. xonikk

    xonikk 'SuperSonic'

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    Hey, have you got harmor ? If so, I think it would be the better solution. cheers mate.
     
  6. D-Jhepz

    D-Jhepz ◕‿◕

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    i tried splitting freqs and failed and didnt like... i tend to use alot of layer and surgical and "poetic" eqing to get everything fitting... you can make big big sounds... also if your lookin for sub you can do the same with sine waves and detuned saws and such play with octavces and then low pass as you will still have the rawness from the original sound
     
  7. Mr Fletch

    Mr Fletch aka KRONIX

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    Layering is the way forward for these kind of basses, a simple sine wave sub will never give the raw power you are after on it's own. It is needed to fill the bottom end of the sound out, but then you'll want another synth on top with a lowpassed square wave, and maybe another two or three with various effects on them
     
  8. Mason John

    Mason John 21st Junta

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    Sines, saws, and squares are your friends ;) I'm dirt cheap atm and came across a vst called Contack; pretty simple, but it seems to function really well for mids and sub basses, even w/o stacking other effects and layers on it. There's a kind of krackle-click pop on the attack tho, but I'm sure it's something I can resolve w/ some tweaking.
     
  9. dieiscast

    dieiscast Member

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    thanks a lot for the answers! what i don't want is another vst... because in the past i always tried to solve my problems that way even if i knew that i won't help ;o)

    i will try further with layering... do you realy have several synths which provides the sub bass? i always thought the simplier the better on the low end... on what frequency you usually high cut the sub? 100Khz? 300Khz? lower?

    - - - Updated - - -

    i use cubase 6 artist... interesting tutorial... have to try something similar sometimes...
     
  10. Mr Fletch

    Mr Fletch aka KRONIX

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    Depends what sound I'm going for? I tend to have a synth solely for sub, then maybe a couple more stacked on top, for other sounds, grouped together so they play in sync when I hit a key on my midi controller. Not sure if you can group in Cubase? but in Ableton its a dream come true. Will throw together a tutorial if you want?
     
  11. Balthazaar

    Balthazaar Member

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    What u said about compression,envelopes u are on right track just make sure when when u assign envelope to pitch to have fast attack and little bit decay,and try adding saturation/distortion in little amounts...
     
  12. fluid.element

    fluid.element Member

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    As Mr Fletch said, layering is the key to making a sound 'fat'.

    I have now started to produce my bass samples from scratch (as opposed to sampled reese's), finding a nice chunky sampled Pulse or Saw wave (I use omnisphere, which uses sampled keyboards like moog/jupiter etc worth the money!!), then duplicating the track (in ableton I am using instrument rack) about 3 times. This makes it sound bigger and phatter but the main reason for doing this, is to split the freqs. And the reason to do this is so I can add distortion (I quite like camelcrusher which is free) to the higher bass (high pass from 2-3khz but depends, cut to taste/sound). For the middle freqs (100hz to 2khz or thereabouts) I'm using Ableton's plugin Amp, which is what it sounds like, an amp plugin for guitars. I use the option Bass and play with the settings so it sounds bigger.

    The key with this is to find a balance. The first track will be left alone, the second one will be eq'd so it sounds bassy and chunky and the third will be higher but with distortion. I find adding distortion straight to the whole thing muddy's the frequencies.

    From there I resample this to its own track and then duplicate those tracks twice. The two tracks I duplicated will be detuned, one by -cents and the by +cents, both of which will use the same number. I detune it as much or little as I think it needs. It varies depending on the original source.

    Now you can start adding effects like Chorus, Phaser, Flanger and more EQ here, sky is the limit. Oh, almost forgot! I already had effects within omnisphere such as distortion and chorus, but those effects are with the patch within omnisphere and taking them off had a negative effect, so I left them on.

    All in all, it is about finding a nice chunky Saw/Pulse waveform to begin with, because if you don't, you will have hell trying to make it chunky AND quality sounding.

    Eek I feel like I have waffled on a bit and I'm tired so if that sounded like bollocks I apologise ;)
     
  13. Mr Fletch

    Mr Fletch aka KRONIX

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    ^^ Exactly how I do it!^^

    Usually within an instrument rack in Ableton I'll have two or three NI Massive, One square, one saw and one combination of oscillators. I'll usually leave the saw wave clean but pitch it quite low. The square will sometimes have a bit of unison going on, and the combo instance will have various effects depending on what sound im going for.

    From here, i'll resample a straight 8 bar middle C note to audio. then i'll put that audio into a sampler, create another instrument rack and duplicate the sampler within the rack so I now have two or three versions of the raw audio. Then add various FX again, rinse and repeat
     
  14. fluid.element

    fluid.element Member

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    :)

    Also I think it is worth mentioning that while processing/resampling several times is the key to getting nasty sounding bass, the phrase "too much of a good thing, is a bad thing" also applies to this. I think everyone has got lost at some point processing the bollocks off a sound and feeling frustrated with the poor results compared to professional work.

    I find a good technique is to cut out a part of a tune you like with that dirty bass you love (can do this in your daw) and have that sample sitting in your daw so you can reference it at each process/resample stage, then when you find the sweet spot, stop and pat yourself on the back :D (it obviously makes sense to choose your reference bass which is as close as what you are trying to achieve)

    It is always a constant learning experience and there are many subtle techniques to do essentially the same thing so try and be consistent with the technique you decide on and if you see some results then stick with that method (such as the one myself and Mr Fletch have talked about) until you feel you have it mastered.

    There are many decent tutorials on youtube as well.

    This is good for showing you how to create movement in a bassline http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGVY8M8Sjkc

    and this one is great for showing how the process/resample technique is done http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij8_7HI9Ifw
     
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  15. Mr Fletch

    Mr Fletch aka KRONIX

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    I'll totally agree with you again on this. I spent ages (like years) searching for that elusive neuro sound. Many people on here will vouch for me on that, I had various threads asking questions, I got frustrated not knowing the answers, I felt like I was missing something completely! But finally after what feels like a lifetime of trial and error, I have found a way (which just so happens to be the same way as you) to achieve the sounds I want to create!

    Now the next step is to try and automate the modulation in some kind of groove lol
     
  16. fluid.element

    fluid.element Member

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    Exactly.. all the tutorials in the world won't get you fast results, it helps a ton, but until you spend hours upon hours your own time experimenting then you won't fully achieve that sound that everyone wants to hear.

    I think once you know that it does take a long time to get to, it doesn't feel so bad, and that is what the point I am getting at, it is OK that you can't do it. You will fail many times before you succeed with it, so to the OP, keep going, keep on messing around and trying new things, it gets real frustrating but you will get there!

    It reminds me of weight training, there is no magic pill and no fast track (well, unless you actually find awesome neuro samples, there are good ones, but none that compare to what the top producers put out) it just takes time and effort.

    It has taken me on and off about 2-3 years to be OK at producing drum and bass, and the track in my sig used a sampled reese.. I have literally in the past week become competent at creating my own neuro-y basslines.. I guess it will just come down to how much you want it, you want it enough.. then it becomes a matter of time, you will get there.

    Oh yes!! the fun never ends :D
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2013
  17. Mr Fletch

    Mr Fletch aka KRONIX

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    we should collaborate
     
  18. fluid.element

    fluid.element Member

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    Sounds good mate! would be my first though! I will drop you a PM so we don't take over this guys thread :)
     
  19. dieiscast

    dieiscast Member

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    hi mates

    thanks again. this board really is the best. you get quality answers even if i don't like what i hear... i will have to stay on my try and error path which can be really frustrating ;o)

    i think most of the answers are helping me in getting the low end on which i'm after. but are there any specific tips to make a sub bass punchy (like the one in the postet track panorama)? i think there the resampling technique isn't the answer... or is it?
     
  20. subprime

    subprime Dysjoint

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    Are you working on a particular track that is giving you trouble...you might get more specific advice if we could hear a bit of it. Depends on the patch with frequency splitting. If you're using Massive with heaps of crazy modulations to make the midrange awesome then the sub region might be messy and ill-defined, in which case splitting frequencies won't help. In that case you're better off making a cleaner sub and layering it underneath. If you look at the tune in a spectrum analyser you should be able to see your sub as a fairly well defined shape. If not maybe there's low end junk on your other sounds that's masking it. If all that is sweet then it could be the balance of your mixdown.