Bass and Kick contol in the mix

Discussion in 'Production' started by The Silver Fox, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. The Silver Fox

    The Silver Fox Cunning

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    Hi guys, hope you can help with a problem I've been having.

    I'm a real DnB noob, and I'm having real problems getting the sound I want for my bass line, as it is colliding with the kick drum. I can't get the bass line loud enough without it 'eating' the bass out of the kick.

    Does anyone have anysuggestions on how to control this? It is driving me nuts.

    edit: I do know a fair bit about music production though, just no in this field
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2006
  2. Serum

    Serum Well-Known Member

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    You problem is probably that the kick is missing frequencies.
    If your kick doesn't have enough mids and tops then it'll get drowned out by bass, as all it will have is bass, or maybe you

    It's a question of EQ but the kick or bass could be at fault. Most of the time when people tell me this they've got a really dull kick.
     
  3. logikz

    logikz I Am Not The King Staff Member

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    sidechain kick peaks to a bassline compressor and DARE I SAY IT a hp filter.
     
  4. The Silver Fox

    The Silver Fox Cunning

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    Hey Serum and Logikz thanks for the responses.

    It's quite a toppy kick, someone else described it as tomlike. I think mabe the muddiness of the bass is masking what little bass there is. If you felt like having listen (if you can bear it) to a little snippet and making some suggestions I'd really appreciate that :D

    Click To Listen
     
  5. Dj_Fozzybear

    Dj_Fozzybear Greenpiece Records

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    Two things may help you:-
    1) Eq the low sub off your kick (HPF up to about 62hz or so), this will leave the room for the sub as well as separating the two sounds in terms of frequency.
    2) Logikz nailed it on the head- SIDE CHAINS!!!
    Basically what you need to do is "duck" your bass when the kick hits so the kick is more prominent when it hits.
    http://www.computermusic.co.uk/pdf/tutorials/sidechain.pdf

    Check that out for the details it will be more effective than me telling you in my own unhelpful and confusing way!!! :)
     
  6. The Silver Fox

    The Silver Fox Cunning

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    Okay cool, so roughly I want the kick 'sub' to be sat on top of the bass sub in descrete EQ regions.

    I'm working in SL 1 so sidechaining is very very crap, but I'll give it a go, it is possible to come to a satisfactory solution using DFX midi gater.

    Also since the audio clip in question, I've completely changed the bass line, and put in the sub manually so I have waaaay more control over that.

    Cheers for the good advice all.
     
  7. Serum

    Serum Well-Known Member

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    You really don't need sidechaining, best to figure out how to mix it without, then use that to enhance otherwise you'll be running before you can walk.

    Once you get the hang of EQing you'll be pissing yourself at how easy it is to do. I've not had a kick and sub clash in years now, once you've got the know how you can make any kick work in the mix. Sidechain once you're got good at the basics.
     
  8. logikz

    logikz I Am Not The King Staff Member

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    to be fair mate, good eqing is a hell of a lot more difficult to learn than sidechaining. sidechainings like three clicks, eqing is a combination of rocketscience and art
     
  9. Serum

    Serum Well-Known Member

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    Well fair play but you'll be sidechaining a weak break with a weak bassline.

    You don't have that much trouble with it from what I can hear though, what's the deal?
     
  10. Dj_Fozzybear

    Dj_Fozzybear Greenpiece Records

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    Good point from the Serum, gotta have a fat sound to work with first before anything, always eq first and if there is still some trouble then side chain. (If using Logic which i don't:nono: it is a lot easier to sidechain stuff than with Cubase which is an absolute mission to sidechain stuff with) Can't polish a turd init!!
     
  11. kama

    kama benkama.net

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    basic eq tip:

    I usually just hipass the already layered kick at about 60Hz, then peak it a little at about 80-100Hz. Then just drop the same freq from the sub (without touching the very bottom under that freq). The kick has enough boom in that area. So the kick takes the area the sub lacks. Then a slight sidechain compressor, you're there.

    Break bottom/kick -> 2 area EQ - HP 60Hz & boost 85Hz
    Sub -> t.ex. the Waves RBass boost at 50Hz or so. (cut below 10Hz, just takes headroom.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2006
  12. The Silver Fox

    The Silver Fox Cunning

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    I'd agree with all that. The biggest problem with it is was the sounds were rubbish. The reece lacked proper sub bass because I was trying to do it all on one synth - so the distortion was pulling all the bass out of it. By turning it up to the point were it sounded good it obscured the bass of the kick. When the bass sounded good the kick sounded rubbish and vice versa.

    As you can't polish a turd, I filtered the bass and put in pure sine sub underneath and replaced the kick with something much better. It really sounds so much better now, I've sorted out the snare too.

    Cheers guys :)
     
  13. Serum

    Serum Well-Known Member

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    A good thing to do with your bass is to distort it then bring the level back down and put a bass boost in afterwards and possibly a compressor afterwards.

    That's the biggest problem with distortion, you've got to make sure you EQ things good afterwards, and if it's a bassline the first step is to add more sub.

    If you just boost the existing sub rather than a layered sine wave it'll sound more natural and solid, as it'll be an extension of exactly the same sound.
     
  14. Dj_Fozzybear

    Dj_Fozzybear Greenpiece Records

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    Lets Hear it!!!!:jacko:
     
  15. The Silver Fox

    The Silver Fox Cunning

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    Hehe

    Here is a quick blat of it

    CLICK ME

    This is fairly near the start of the track and still needs loads of work, but the engine is getting near the kind of sound I was after.

    I'm thinking that if I layered loads of reeces together then I could get a really pure sine sub and loads of detail on the lead more meshed together. I'll have to give it a whirl.

    Hope you like it :)
     
  16. logikz

    logikz I Am Not The King Staff Member

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    thats a good point??? thats completely beside the point, you could sidechain a sofa with a trenchcoat for all i care, its not a case of 'one or the other'. of course you have to make it sound fat and of course its important to get the basics down really well, sure, both are good points but whats that got to do with sidechaining?
     
  17. Serum

    Serum Well-Known Member

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    :hotpants: :hotpants: :hotpants: :hotpants: is all I can say

    I got a good PM coming up for you, you'll love it!
     
  18. dj_xero

    dj_xero music lover

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    I've noticed something bout dnb mixing... especially thoughout the history of the music.

    nearly all the bass is in the bassline, which is usually doubled or trippled up... which poses many problems with eq control, trying to fit it all together nicely. the drums have so much bass eq'd out of the mix that the bassline is incredibly intergral.

    But now, so many rules have been changed and hell, just listen to alot of Pendulum tracks, they've got kick drums the size of howitzers, and the snares like gun shots. So there really are 2 ways to go. (not to mention Paradox's heavy tunes, those kicks are massive)

    um, just some observations is all. There's no set way, but this is dance music, so the drums gotta be high in the mix, and with dnb, that snare has to slam your head agains the wall.

    ya
     
  19. logikz

    logikz I Am Not The King Staff Member

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    im warm and fuzzy inside and if i sit back and relax my body laughs
     
  20. Dj_Fozzybear

    Dj_Fozzybear Greenpiece Records

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    :word: