33/45rpm

Discussion in 'Drum & Bass' started by Mr_Whitty, Jun 26, 2015.

  1. Mr_Whitty

    Mr_Whitty Active Member

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    I personally don't mind 2 tunes a side ep's at 33, as long as there is no more than 2... If done right they sound really good actually. I do prefer 1 a side at 45.

    What is your take on this in 2015? Back in 94/95 they use to do 2/3 tunes a side ep's/lp's right?
     
  2. dizzledee

    dizzledee equinox

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    From a mixing perspective it would frustrate me I think.. can't imagine it would be easy to carefully select the cuepoint of the second tune in a dark booth either...
     
  3. Dannyboy93

    Dannyboy93 EL CAPITAIN

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    yeah I don't mind 2 tunes a side but any more than that I would only buy for listening, not mixing, would use the CD with vinyl or download and spin it on traktor if I wanted to mix anything from one of those pressings

    just the way things are going I guess there seems to be loads of pressings with 2 tunes a side at the minute, not a bad thing means more tunes on vinyl, only bad when it is a shit pressing!
     
  4. Vanden

    Vanden -nieuwenhuysen

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    2 tunes a side will never put me off buying a record if I want it, although it is preferable to have 1 a side. With Danny re >2 per side
     
  5. Teddy

    Teddy 60% Staff Member

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    Spectrsoul The Mistress has 3 on one side and it's fine. A perfect example of how to press. That's Beau T's brilliance for you.
    Some 33's with multiple tracks on each side can be a little quieter in volume, but nothing a little trim of the gain cant fix.

    My only advise for these when mixing, is to be gentle with them. Don't treat them like battle records and if you can, use the cue lever to lift the stylus and avoid unnecessary scratching.
    Although this is good practice to apply to 1 track 12's too.

    If you care about your vinyl's, treat them well and they'll serve you well.
    Calibrate your turntables often and store your vinyls upright, away from dust, direct sunlight and heat sources.
    Disclaimer = IMO.
     
  6. deaneg

    deaneg Active Member

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    For LPs I think I prefer 3 tracks a side at 33rpm, the more tunes getting pressed the better. EPs and singles I don't really care. I don't mix so the rpm doesn't really bother me, as long as my favourites get pressed.

    Could someone explain to me the issues with mixing 33s? I don't really understand, from what my mate tells me the issues don't seem that big yet it seems to put a lot of people here off buying them so I guess I don't fully understand, he does mix dubstep though.
     
  7. lug00ber

    lug00ber Active Member

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    If the mastering is done properly (which obviously is true in general) it doesn't bother me that much. While it is a fact that the sound deteriorates the further in on the disc you cut, it's better than having less tunes out on wax.

    However, the annoyances of finding cue points that comes with clear/picture/splatter/patterned/useless colors discs gets worse when there's more tracks on a side.
     
  8. lug00ber

    lug00ber Active Member

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    The longer distance on the disc the needle has to travel for a time interval (let's say one second), the better the sound quality. This means two things which both are relevant here:
    1) Considering the time it takes for the disc to do one rotation is constant, you get shorter distances per second the further inwards on the disc you go. When you cut just one track you don't have to use the entire disc, you can typically fit it within the first half of the available space on the side. When you cut several tracks per side, you will have to utilize the inner parts of the disc, where sound quality deteriorates.
    2) The needle covers more time per rotation at 33 than at 45, meaning that you get lower "resolution" in the time domain on lower speeds.

    This is a simplification, I'm not a physics major. But there's plenty of articles to read on the subject online if you want to delve into it a bit more :)

    Another thing is that manipulating (pitch bending) a 33 record feels different than manipulating a 45 record, because you do less drastic movements on a 33 to achieve the same shifts in time than you do on a 45.
     
  9. Agent Smith

    Agent Smith Currently Putins Koala

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    The pressing of The Mistress LP was definitely considerably better than some 2 tunes per side releases.

    Overall it doesn't bother me massively actually mixing them. Its the volume/punch that on some I have bought that I felt really needed a massive gain boost, but it seems to be getting better.
     
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  10. rythmatix

    rythmatix Well-Known Member

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    I posted this in the Vinyl Purchases thread, but this is a better place for it so am copying it to here:

    Here's what I got when recording some snippets of a few tunes the other night to see if there was a visual difference in volume between some of the records I have bought these days and the 45/33 sides of some releases.

    Firstly we have Phil Tangent - Bedouin EP. Top track is Bedouin at 45rpm, bottom is Rinjani at 33rpm on the flip.
    [​IMG]

    Not a massive difference on this one, but noticeable. The pressing is pretty good though so not too much issue with that.

    Next is Cern's Under Another Sky's album Pt1. Top is Infinite Exchange, and bottom is Helix.
    [​IMG]

    Once again, not too bad. And as discussed, Dispatch is pretty solid when it comes to the 45/33 thing - but still a noticeable difference nonetheless.

    Now, here's a bunch of tunes in a row. Compare them with above and you will start to see what I mean:
    [​IMG]

    Top one is Foreign Concept - When You're Alone. Wave doesn't look too bad here, but this is a notorious one for me which I can never get the level right on.
    Next one down is Diablo from the DRS LP plate. That one sounds pretty good, and I don't hear much of a difference with it at all.
    The 3rd is the Gunshotta Om Unit remix. This one sounds pretty average to my ears - flat and quite quiet, which sucks as the record is a thick plate which feels bulletproof.
    4th is Skeptical - Imperial. This one I have no issues with really at all (as mentioned before, the Exit EP's are all good for the most part, considering they are coloured too). The only thing that catches me out with this one is the intro being quiet haha.
    5th is The Blob, on the Reso LP. Now you can see what I am talking about, the wave is so quiet and flat that it equates to a record that 'turning up the gains' doesn't really fix. I don't want to have to EQ the shit out of a record when I am playing it - that should of been done when it was pressed, and checked before being produced. I have forked out decent money for a product that, to me, is next to useless. Lets see if iy goes up in price on discogs so I can sell it to some Hospital hipster.
    And lastly, is Teddy Killerz - Endlessly. As a few people have said, this pressing is terribly quiet. I actually think it sounds OK (there are still decent peaks on the waveform there), but it is an inferior product compared to Ram's normal pressings.

    I know this isn't a perfect science - and some of the tunes above aren't exactly the same sort of style/drums between. But it gives a bit of an insight to my constant frustrations on this issue - and why I am very pro 45's. And to those who say 'just EQ is a bit', or tweak the gains - its easier said than done I find. I have some records that I know are a bit quieter or whatever, and no matter what I do before the drop I still find they sound weak and theres a real lull or loss of energy in the club when I drop them (which leads me to shelve the record for good which sucks if I love the tune).

    This is one of the main reasons why I am not a fan of 33's (if you don't want to play whole 3/4/5 phrase intro's...)

    [​IMG]
    Note: I was taught to count half of the beats per bar than you should for D&B, but my 16 beats is still 2 phrases which is most peoples 32 (2 phrases)

    That image above is basically why I can't do the 3-tunes-a-side thing - if the intro's are longer than 3 phrases, I want to sticker them but then the sticker for the intro of one tune cuts off half the of the tune before when so many tunes crammed on.
    If the pressing has to be 3-a-side for it to be produced, I wish a couple of things were considered for people who actually want to play these records in a club (that wouldn't really effect the people who buy them to only listen to); like intro's edited so they are short and tight (with nice percussion for mixing) and tunes in key ranges grouped together on each side (for those of us who mix in key and have our tunes in order - otherwise only 1 of the 3 tunes on a side might be in play on a record which to me is a waste of cash when you are shelling out twice as much as a single 12" for those plates most of the time).

    On that note - it's a false economy to consider one plate with 6 tunes on it worth 2-3 times the price of a single tune per side 12" - especially when some of us feel its worth less in some cases.

    that is all
     
  11. dambusters

    dambusters Melbourne

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    33s hardly ever sound as fat as 45s, no matter how much you crank the gain. Often if you do that you just end up boosting it so much that it just distorts and sounds like shit, but still doesn't stand up next t a meaty 45 pressing. Obviously there are exceptions, but in general.
     
  12. balistics

    balistics Active Member

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    Not quite sure what you're getting at bro, can you go into some more detail please :teeth:
     
  13. rythmatix

    rythmatix Well-Known Member

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    hahahaha :orly:
     
  14. hyperd4eva

    hyperd4eva H&M SCARVES

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    yeah it annoys me too.
     
  15. blumarten

    blumarten Well-Known Member

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    all 8 of them

    it's a daft economic choice to manufacture products for a tiny (and dwindling) customer base. If it were your business and your money on the line there's no way you'd be doing what you say you'd like done.
     
  16. DJrsa

    DJrsa Member

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    is it not just purely down to trying to get as much onto a vinyl without losing quality? 33 = 22 mins rec on vinyl 45 = 15 mins rec on vinyl?? correct me if im wrong.

    Also Beau is a don!
     
  17. deaneg

    deaneg Active Member

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    What actually gets sacrificed when trying to fit more on a record anyway? High and low frequencies? Bitrate? Still not sure I get why the rpm affects the mastering and EQ.
     
  18. dambusters

    dambusters Melbourne

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    33s are cut with a shallower groove, which I assume allows for the longer run time. But also means they don't output as much signal as the deeper groove on a 45. Or something like that.
     
  19. rythmatix

    rythmatix Well-Known Member

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    Interesting this coming from one of the last labels that has kept the nice 45rpm structure!

    I didn't think I suggested anything crazy or outlandish in my posts above. I just think there has to be some common sense applied to the product, to at least try to stop the numbers from dwindling so much. And a lot of my suggestions aren't going to put off the home listeners who the labels seem to think are becoming the majority of the vinyl buyers (which I think may apply to some labels, but definitely not most of the others). Having loud, nice sounding records is good for home and in the club. Having tunes in the same key range on each side of a record is good for DJing and would sound nicer at home when one tune moves onto the next. I think edited tunes/intro's for vinyl only is great too as it works better on the format, and adds something special to the releases (I don't think it takes the producers too long to do something like that, but I might be wrong)...and not trying to charge 16 pounds for one plate because there's 6 tunes crammed on it when you can buy those 6 tunes for 4 pounds (or whatever) on Beatport is a no-brainer to me too.

    Its about encouraging people to shell out a tad more to get the physical product - which I think should mean that MP3's/WAV's should always be available online right away to anyone that buys the physical product (a few labels have cottoned onto this already, of course). Especially when a lot of the vinyl these days is becoming available WEEKS after the MP3's have been (which I think is absolutely crazy by the labels wanting to still continue to sell records) - NOTE: this is not including those that have been held up by manufacturers delays, as Demand have touched on, which sucks for everyone concerned and I feel their pain.

    I have seen a few things change over the past few years, and the big one for me is that we've lost the 'promo period' for vinyl releases, which has been replaced with a 'beatport exclusive' period. Is it any wonder less people are encouraged to buy the records when digital DJ's can have it, right away, weeks before we can buy it (then wait for it to arrive)? I am not really sure why the emphasis has been moved over to the format that is easier to sell...

    Anyway, I just want things to get better for the vinyl industry. It probably won't, but I have been as bigger advocate as I can (both vocally and speaking with my wallet) over the years to try to help. I am glad there's a place like this to vent and to have direct discussions with label owners, and I just hope any of the suggestions I muster are of some use to someone.
     
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  20. lug00ber

    lug00ber Active Member

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    Being a small time club resident in Oslo, Norway, the race to play the newest stuff doesn't really concern me that much. Most people coming to our club don't really care whether I play records from 2005 or 2015 as long as its good music. Now and then it's fun to be first to play something that me and the other dnb djs in Oslo (all 8 of us, so we're the ones @blumarten referenced earlier) have been especially looking forward to, but that's still just a circle jerk thing for the nerds and nothing more.


    However, what I was wondering about was why there are Beatport exclusive releases at all. With my limited understanding of economics and business - and absolutely no understanding or experience with running a label - it would seem logical that when you distribute digitally you'd want a release available for sale in as many places as possible to cover as big a market as possible. Does Beatport offer promotional support and/or kickbacks for exclusive content, is the labels share bigger there than other stores (disregarding the label's own store for now, as I'm assuming those would have the biggest shares of all for the label) or what?
    @blumarten @antc1dispatch @demandrecords .. anyone who can enlighten me?
     
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