Why don't 'Stereo Wide' "basses" hit the same as Monoed "centered" Bass patches?

Discussion in 'Production' started by Protoplasym, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. Protoplasym

    Protoplasym Nuskool

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    Hopefully a simple question guys...


    I would like to know why patches that are heavily panned from left to right (namely heavily Pulse Width Modulated Patches in the low end) in quick fashion don't "hit" the same way on a Mono Sub setup as an actual Monoed Sub Patch does... anyone know why?

    Pefect example would be Vanguard (VSTi, I'm sure I'm on an ooooold version from back in '07ish).
    It has a "spread" parameter built in the synth that pretty much keeps every patch from being perfectly centered... even when that's set to 0, there is still some seperation in the Stereo Field... that coupled with the PWM aspect of the engine (where all 3 OSCs are squeezed through the PWM feature) usually keeps everything that Vanguard spits out from being "centered".

    With the Spread function set at zero, and the PWM anywhere above zero, there is still quite a bit of seperation (stereo wise) in the patch... and this usually sounds awesome on everything I play it on.

    If I'm making a "Sub" sound with Vanguard I have to mono it out, otherwise, it won't properly show up (doesn't hit right) in my car (which has two 12" Subs), but it'll "hit" on everything else I preview it on.


    Sounds amazingly deep in Headphones.
    Bah... I feel like I'm giving the most convoluted explanation to something super simple..


    Bottom line (base simplicity) - why do non Monoed "Sub" sounds (i.e. 100HZ and under) not hit as hard as the same sound Monoed???

    Does anyone know what in the world I'm blabbing about because I don't feel like I can construct the question very well today (apologies for that).




    thks to anyone who can shed some light on this... I have no formal schooling so my "basics" in engineering are on the light side :pimp:
     
  2. TongueFlap

    TongueFlap Flappin'

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    when you 'stereo wide' bass it will sometimes cause phasing issues. This means it will cancel out some frequencies, Which leads it not having that 'punchy sub' sound. Im not a wizz on this kinda stuff, so im sure someone will give a techy answer

    ---------- Post added at 18:38 ---------- Previous post was at 18:35 ----------

    Also, 9/10 times bass will be sat in the center of the tune - It kinda naturally wants to sit there. The only times it wont be is if your doing surround sound stuff. But... I think some Justice (the french electro duo) stuff has bass which is slightly widened.
     
  3. bite and gouge

    bite and gouge Lee Fury & JtB

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    Struggling with this one a bit myself...

    I'm guessing from your description that your synth is routed into the mixer in a stereo channel, so from that I guess that the mono sounds also play through the stereo channel? Therefore, you are effectively doubling the mono bass?... clutching at straws here... nothing wrong with doubling channels though.

    Typically, bass frequencies as in under 100hz-ish are non directional sounds, as in the ear can't tell where the sound is coming from. So for this reason, they are typically centered. Another reason is because when stereo recording came about nobody knew how to use it and many recordings of the time had the whole backing track on one channel and the vocal on the other. When cut to vinyl, the lathe would cut so much of one side away, the records were un-playable, so to spread the load it was centered. So I would tend to stay away from anything stereo on the bottom end.

    With bass sounds that you want to pan, try separating the bottom end out on to a different channel so you can keep the heavy part centered on one channel and the mid-high end free to pan on another. This would explain why everything other than your subs it sounds fine on because on most systems the frequency rarely goes below 80hz and the speakers are so small they just don't move the air.

    There you go... I nearly out blabbed you!! ... Hope that helps in some way????

    Peace


    [​IMG]
    Lee Fury & JTB
    http://soundcloud.com/biteandgouge
     
  4. groelle

    groelle Well-Known Member

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    you cant really locate bass frequencys anyways, so why would you want your sub to be stereo?

    apart from that, stereo signals normally appear louder as mono signals. but with bass, you have to imagine the sub coming out of all speakers at the same volume, versus a bassline that comes through the left speaker slightly earlier then through the right one - without your ear being able to grasp that.

    if that makes any sense, lol ^^^ think thats the problem if it doesnt phase at all.

    and by the way, stereo sub bass cant be cut to vinyl.
     
  5. Protoplasym

    Protoplasym Nuskool

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    :not_worth Cheers... I hear you and I understand those principles just fine. That doesn't cover my issue though. If I can figure out how to word my question better, then I'll repost. Until then, I need to post this sound bite as an example to show y'all what I'm talking about.

    It's not a case of me, "wanting my Sub to be in stereo". It's more of a case of: the Patch sounds amazing on anything with a Stereo sub setup... but doesn't on a Mono Sub setup. It's a case of the Patch 'already' doing weird panning from left to right in quick succession due to the PWM and general nature of Vanguard 'never being properly centered' = the patch sounds great left alone, but if Monoed, 90% of the "magic" goes away with the stereoness.


    It pisses me off, because whenever I make a Low End riff (Sub, in the 100hz or lower ranger) with Vanguard, I usually have to mono it or use the dual layer method in order to get it to properly "hit" on a Mono sub setup.

    ---------- Post added at 13:37 ---------- Previous post was at 13:24 ----------

    haha! Soundcloud to the rescue... having issues with my own site so I have gone the Soundcloud route... :rolleyes:


    :clown:



    Alright guys... can y'all please Reference this on a setup you know well?


    Is this Bassing (hitting) like you would expect said riff at said frequencies to bass?



    not sure why but I can't get the SoundCloud link to be playable from within the thread... ???...
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010
  6. bite and gouge

    bite and gouge Lee Fury & JtB

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    Ok, I see what your saying now. As said above, there is obviously some cancellation going on. But all points above are very valid. Although it sounds great when producing, stereo is a bit like fools gold. The best approach would be to produce with mono in mind first and then placing those sounds in a stereo field. So with that in mind, try just using one channel out of the synth rather than a stereo pair and then doubling it, that might solve the phasing problem but might not be the sound your after. I think most would steer away from using a stereo patch for the low end in the first place.

    Peace


    [​IMG]
    Lee Fury & JTB
    http://soundcloud.com/biteandgouge
     
  7. groelle

    groelle Well-Known Member

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    exactly this.

    and btw bite and gouge, there is a signature function implanted in these forums, dunno if you already knew about that? :p

    ---------- Post added at 19:54 ---------- Previous post was at 19:49 ----------

    and a little hint while were at it. never use headphones to check panning issues. headphones totally overacentuate stereo-movement because the splitted signal just, and only, goes into one ear.
     
  8. Protoplasym

    Protoplasym Nuskool

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    I well understand this.. but it's not just headphones that this Example sounds good on. It sounds like it's Bassing fine in my Civic (which has a decent lil Rockford Fosgate sound system in it, tiny 6" Sub), here at work, and my setup in the studio.




    Did you two listen to the Example I posted up on Soundcloud? If not, please listen to it on something that you Reference your music on and get back to me on whether the Example "bassed" or not.

    Well, I see from the 'play count' that no one but me has played the file.


    Please listen to that file and then come back with comments in regard to the bass. After you do that, we'll all be on the same page. thks
     
  9. T Leaf

    T Leaf Neighbourhood Sickhead

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    on a more serious note, if your planning to cut anything to vinyl, the bass need to be mono. I generally square away any stereo from < 150hz and leave anything above that as its intended stereo. i try not to go too deep with pan these days as i used to run into a few phasing issues here and there.
     
  10. bite and gouge

    bite and gouge Lee Fury & JtB

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    Thanks for the heads up Groelle. First time I've really been into posting on a forum, so its all a bit new to me still... got it sorted now though!!

    Peace
     
  11. obe

    obe New Member

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    Any guide what should be mono and what stereo?thanks
     
  12. groelle

    groelle Well-Known Member

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    kicks, snares, bass mono, rest stereo ;)
     
  13. obe

    obe New Member

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    thanks mate
     
  14. groelle

    groelle Well-Known Member

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    no problem. and mind, with bass i meant everything below approx. 200hz.
     
  15. Protoplasym

    Protoplasym Nuskool

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    Wow... morning, guys. I hate to sound ungrateful but christ on a crutch... no one listened to the sound example and commented on whether or not the Bass was hitting on their setup. :confused:


    C'mon guys... it'll take you all of a minute to click on that Soundcloud link, listen to 10-20 seconds of the clip and come back and tell me if the Bass in that lil clip is "hitting" or not.
     
  16. logikz

    logikz I Am Not The King Staff Member

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    think of it like a V. look at the V. the top is wide. the bottom is low. so height = frequency., width = stereo field.
     
  17. groelle

    groelle Well-Known Member

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    not to be harsh here, but stereo bass just makes no fucking sense, so why should i take my precious time and tell you wether it works or not, when its just useless?

    ---------- Post added at 15:44 ---------- Previous post was at 15:42 ----------

    now i listened, and oh wow. something i didnt expect, lol. /tur off sarcasm

    there is bass, but its not really "hitting".

    ---------- Post added at 15:45 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------

    and again btw, peoples ears CANNOT locate subbass frequencys. maybe apart from good headphones.
     
  18. bite and gouge

    bite and gouge Lee Fury & JtB

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    I did grab a quick listen though not through the studio monitors. Had to settle for the cheap surround sound system connected to my media PC... which tends to be quite bass heavy anyway. Wasn't really expecting a whole track to be honest... it would be easier to compare the stereo and mono variations with the bass sound soloed. As for "hitting"... not really sure what you mean there but the bass came through ok in the track, could be heavier... it really is personal choice to be honest, just go with what you feel works best. Keep up the good work!

    Peace
     
  19. Protoplasym

    Protoplasym Nuskool

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    Ha, I don't understand the animosity in your post in the least. This is the PROD section of the forum and my post has plenty of relevence. If your time is "so precious" then why are you even posting on a Forum in the first place.

    Honestly man... your reply was a lil strong on the 'assholy o' side.


    "there is bass, but its not really "hitting" - Thank you for taking the time to confirm my thoughts though... it's appreciated.

    Thank you for checking it out. When I say, "hitting", I mean it's moving the right amount of air when it comes to Sub Frequencies (100 and below)... in this case... around the 60-80 region if I'm remembering correctly.



    Definitely a solid idea... will do. You will notice how the track instantly dies after I mono the Bass Patch. It sounds sooo full of life in Stereo with all the Pulse Width Modulation going on... once it's monoed = it'll sound meh, but it'll probably "hit" the right way.
     
  20. groelle

    groelle Well-Known Member

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    sry mate, wasnt meant to be offensive.
     

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